Dr Nae

On this week’s episode Clare talks with Dr Nadine Macaluso about her marriage to the Wolf of Wall Street, Love Bombing and her new book “Run Like Hell”.

At the age of twenty-two, Nadine’s life took an unexpected turn when she married Jordan Belfort, the infamous stockbroker immortalized in the Hollywood hit “The Wolf of Wall Street.” Initially, their union seemed like a modern-day fairytale, but beneath the surface, a dark reality began to unfold. As their bond tightened, Jordan’s façade crumbled, revealing a complex web of infidelity, narcissistic abuse, insatiable greed, and a devastating drug addiction that transformed Nadine’s dream into a harrowing nightmare.

The turmoil of this traumatic relationship served as the catalyst for Nadine’s remarkable journey. Fuelled by her determination to help others facing similar struggles, she pursued a path of healing and transformation. She received her Master’s degree in Counseling and a Ph.D. in somatic psychotherapy, Dr. Nae established a thriving private practice. Her office quickly became a sanctuary for women who shared hauntingly familiar tales of entanglement with pathological lovers (PLs), trapped in the clutches of trauma bonds.

What began as a personal mission to facilitate healthy relationship development evolved into an impactful vocation. Over six years, Dr. Nae immersed herself in the study of trauma bond relationships, synthesizing her academic foundation with the wisdom gleaned from her patients’ stories. Through this journey, she ascended to the status of a recognized authority in the realms of narcissistic abuse, trauma bonds, and complex PTSD.

She recently wrote a book, “Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds,” scheduled for publication on January 9th, 2024 (available for pre-order on Amazon). In this seminal guide, she shares both her personal narrative and the wealth of knowledge acquired over the years.

Readers are granted insights into the psyche of the narcissistic pathological lover, a nuanced understanding of the traits that render certain women susceptible to their advances, and practical strategies for breaking free from the shackles of trauma bonds.

Nadine’s mission extends far beyond knowledge dissemination; it is a beacon of hope for those ensnared in the darkness. With her guidance, readers are empowered to transcend the clutches of trauma bonds, emerging as resilient “surthrivers” primed for healthy, meaningful relationships. She lives between New York and Florida with her husband of 22 years and their two dogs; she has four children and two grandchildren. And when she’s not working, she loves to exercise, decorate, cook, and spoil her grandchildren.


Hair with Clare – Dr Nadine

Clare: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Hair with Clare. I’m your host, Clare Devereux. I’m a psychologist, a stylist, and founder of Hair Health Essentials. Join me every week with my guests where we talk about big hair, short hair, loud hair, quiet hair, shedding hair, wedding hair, everything in between the nasty and the good, and where you can find out how to have a good hair day.

Clare: Every day we’re gonna unlock the secrets to healthy locks.

Clare: ​Hello and welcome to Hair with Clare. I am your host Clare Devereux and I am so excited to have this guest on today. She is an amazing woman, a spectacular woman actually, and she is a therapist. She is an author. She has a new book coming out called Run Like Hell, which is available to pre order on Amazon.

Clare: And she also was married to the Wolf of Wall Street and her name is Dr. [00:01:00] Nae or Dr. Nadine, Dr. Nae I think she prefers. And for any of you out there that have seen the Wolf of Wall Street, you will know. It was a Martin Scorsese movie. Leonardo DiCaprio played her ex husband, Jordan, and Margot Robbie, the bombshell herself, played this bombshell, Dr.

Clare: Nae. So, Dr. Nae, you are so welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh,

Nadine: I’m so happy to be here.

Clare: Oh, I know. And you’re in sunny Florida. I’m in rainy Dublin. So, you know, only five hours or seven hours away, but what a

Nadine: difference, what a

Clare: difference. So I heard you on another podcast and I was just so drawn to you.

Clare: I, I just loved your strength. I loved your energy and I loved how you turned a very traumatic situation into helping other women out there. I just, I just love that about you and I can tell you’re so strong and vibrant and I loved that. So for everyone listening, can you go back and tell us about that time, when you met Jordan and, and all that crazy, crazy [00:02:00] era?

Nadine: Sure, sure. So yeah, so when I met my ex husband, I was living in Brooklyn, New York, actually in Brooklyn Heights, and I was living with my best friend and I was modeling, um, in New York City, which is a hard gig, right? Because you have to have thick skin to go up against all those beauties. But I had grown up with a single mom in Brooklyn, and really I was modeling to make moNae.

Nadine: You know, it’s very expensive to live in New York City. It wasn’t something like I really long to do. It’s actually quite boring. But, um, yeah, I was modeling and then I was in the Hamptons because when you live in New York City, you go to the Hamptons for the summer because that’s the beach area. And as they show in a movie, I went with my boyfriend at the time to my ex, the Wolf of Wall Street’s house for a party, right?

Nadine: Pull up in this big, beautiful white house on the beach in the Hamptons. And as the movie shows, I walk into this big party [00:03:00] and there’s all these people, you know, that are acting very strange. Now, at the time, I don’t know they’re on Quaaludes because I’m 22. I don’t even think I knew what a Quaalude was, but I’m looking at my boyfriend like these people are acting nuts.

Nadine: And then in the movie, one of the gentlemen does like show himself to me, you know, expose himself. And I said to my boyfriend, we got to get the hell out of here. These people are nuts. Right. And so we leave the party, but I guess, you know, Jordan saw me at the party and was like, that’s for me. And then he pursued me relentlessly.

Clare: And he was married at the time. Is that right? Married

Nadine: at the time. Yes, he was. He was married at the time. And, you know, at 22 years old, I was so clueless. And what had happened was that I didn’t know he was pursuing me at all, but a woman kept calling me and saying, you know, do you want to go to dinner? Do you want to go to dinner?

Nadine: And I was just like, why is this woman calling me? I wasn’t very good friends with her. But what I found [00:04:00] out later that Jordan had paid her 15, 000. To for her to take me out to dinner and for him just to come. So yeah, so he came to the dinner and I was like, why is he coming? You know, he’s married. This is strange.

Nadine: And she’s like, oh, what do you care? I said, no, I don’t care. I just think it’s weird. And I just thought it was weird. And then on the way home, I could tell that he liked me. And, um, and then the next day he did send me, you know, 500 bouquets of flowers in my little 800 square foot apartment.

Clare: So it was full on. I mean, it was really, he wanted you. It was, he was, he went after you full on. And what was that like being like Going on private jets because in the obviously in the movie, it’s very heady. I imagine very unreal

Nadine: You know, it was it was very unreal feeling and that’s you know Kind of that whole love bombing thing where [00:05:00] you know, it’s just like it’s just you really there’s a lot of it like intense attraction and affection and love and showering of gifts and it goes at a very fast pace and so a lot of times You know, you don’t even know quite really what you’re in it, but you’re just I was just feeling so much oxytocin so much dopamine and just feeling all of this love that, you know, a lot of times it causes you to ignore the red flags, the love bombing stage, right?

Nadine: Yeah,

Clare: it

Nadine: was crazy because I grew up poor. I didn’t know from any of this.

Clare: Well, I think most girls would find that very, you know, attractive and at 22, I mean, it’s a totally different life to when you’re living in a small apartment with your friend and hustling for work all the time. So obviously I think most people would fall and he was a good looking guy, right?

Clare: So you’re a physical thing. Everything seems right. And then you got married quite quickly, right? Yeah. So

Nadine: we, you know, and you have to remember, I was 22, he was 28. So there wasn’t [00:06:00] a big age difference, you know, between us. And we did really fall, what we thought was madly in love. Um, I’m sorry, wait, what’d you ask me the question?

Nadine: What’d you

Clare: ask? I said, yeah. So you got married very quickly. Oh, very quickly.

Nadine: Yes. Well, because this is another thing about a trauma bond, which I didn’t know back then, which now I know there’s something called coercive control. Yes. Um, which is at the root of the trauma bond. And he was like, I was 22, 23 at this point.

Nadine: And he’s like, we have to get married. And I was like, I don’t want to get married. I don’t want to get married. I’m young. And he’s like, if you don’t marry me, I’m not going to date you. And I was like, what? Okay. Well, I got it. I gotta do this. And I’m just thinking he’s doing it because he’s so in love with me, right?

Nadine: I don’t understand that there’s a term called coercive control, uh, you know, all these years ago. And then, you know, if you’re, if you’re going to marry me, we have to have babies right away. So there was always these constant high pressure sales tactics. So yes, we did get, we got [00:07:00] engaged six months later and then married six

Clare: months later.

Clare: We have a saying, I don’t know if you have it in over there as well, although I lived in America for a long time, but this saying is, you know, marry in haste, repent at leisure. So if you get married very quick, you know, it’s, it’s hard to get out of sometimes. So you got married and did you. Even when you were getting married, did it feel in your gut?

Clare: Did you think this isn’t right? Or was it just nerves you thought, like, how did you feel about that?

Nadine: You know, the thing, um, again, like I want to talk about is that that love bombing and the course of control and then the red flags, they start to really cross over, right? So it’s a very confusing situation because the extremeness of both of the love bombing and the control or the cruelty.

Nadine: And so I started to see the cruelty and the control come out, but now I’m falling madly in love. And so, yeah, it was, it was just a very, very, very, very confusing thing to

Clare: deal with. And how long [00:08:00] did it take you to leave? I mean, you know, so many women are in situations like that. They don’t know how to leave.

Clare: They don’t know how to get out, particularly as it showed in the movie, you know, by threatening to you, I think he pushed you down the stairs. Yes,

Nadine: it took, it took, it took a long time to leave. And I just want to finish my other answer to that question. I did a video about this on TikTok, which got so many views, because I think a lot of people feel like this.

Nadine: When Jordan asked me to marry him, I said, yes, but my gut said no. Okay. Right. So I just want to go back and answer that. Then how long did it take me to leave? It took me, um, seven to eight years to leave because I had a baby. Then I had another baby, right? So now I’m even more entrenched with him. And now I’m really starting to fear him because he has a very wicked temper.

Nadine: And that’s, you know, what happens exactly in a trauma bond is that there’s something called intermittent abuse. There has [00:09:00] to be two things for a trauma bond to exist. The first thing is a power imbalance. Clearly he had all the resources, the moNae, he had all the power. Plus he gains power over me by his, um, threatening tactics because now I feared him.

Nadine: And the second thing is intermittent abuse, which is when someone is very, very loving, right? Let’s say 25 to 30 percent of the time, but the other time they’re cruel and controlling. Right. And so it’s the, it’s those extreme behaviors. that actually bond you to the person. So you would think that the cruelty and the kindness would actually not bond you, but the research shows it bonds you even more.

Nadine: And so my, our bond is deepening, deepening, deepening. We have children. But really, it was finally his drug addiction that made me get out, which was led to that actually horrible scene. It’s shown [00:10:00] very different in the movie than what happens in real life, but his drug addiction, I didn’t want to watch him kill himself anymore.

Nadine: Okay.

Clare: So you were able to leave. I think you said he had an ankle bracelet. So he’d been arrested, obviously, at the point when you when you left him. And that made it a little bit easier, obviously, you didn’t fear as much for your life then? Yes, yes.

Nadine: Yeah. And that’s what happens is that, um, I, a year before he got arrested was when I confronted him about his drug addiction.

Nadine: And that’s when he got violent with me. And then he did go to rehab, which was the good news. He did get sober. But at that point, you know, when somebody kicks you down the stairs, the love kind of goes out the window at some point. It’s like, okay, bye, bye, love, you know, it’s just, I didn’t feel like that anymore.

Nadine: And then a year later, I left him because he got arrested and he had an ankle bracelet on. And when you’re dealing with someone who’s very powerful and has a lot of moNae, it’s very scary to leave them because I didn’t know he could try to take the kids from me. I [00:11:00] didn’t know what he would try to do to me.

Nadine: But once he got the ankle bracelet on, I knew I was safe. I know he, he was the government’s problem. And so then I was able to leave. Yes.

Clare: So when you left, you obviously changed your life completely. Um, why were you drawn to being a therapist? Did that come straight away or did that take a couple of years to, to kind of find that, that, that passion?

Nadine: Yeah, no. You know, the whole time that I was with Jordan, I, the second I met him, I went right into therapy because I was like, , there’s no way I can manage this guy, this life. Wow. this. And my mom was very open to therapy and I grew up in a very psychological home, so I. I was very open to therapy and I went to therapy and I do believe therapy saved me.

Nadine: I don’t know if I would have made it through all of that honestly alive and somewhat intact if not for therapy. So I moved to Los Angeles at 31 and I was meditating a lot because you [00:12:00] know in Los Angeles we drink, we do yoga, we meditate, right? We do all those things. Yes. And I just got this idea to go back to school at 39 to become a therapist.

Nadine: And I did. Amazing. Yeah. I was older

Clare: for sure. Older. And so the movie probably came out around that time when you’re, you’re starting your practice and you’re, you’re building all these clients coming to you. And what I love about your story is that you really, because a lot of therapists. I mean, they’ve trained and everything in their chosen field, but they haven’t got the actual experience themselves, right?

Clare: Where you have that experience. So you genuinely know what these women are going through and whether it’s a financial abuse or someone’s been held through. finances or it’s physical abuse or mental abuse. You’ve been there probably with all of that. And when women come to you, do you, um, do you, first of all, virtually, do you do a lot of, um, therapies or do people come to you actually in person?

Nadine: Well, so what [00:13:00] happened was that, so I went to school, got my master’s and in the States to be a therapist, you have to do 3000 hours. clinical hours, which takes forever. So I said, okay, let me continue and get my doctorate. Um, cause I have to do all these hours. And so, right. So the movie came out in 2013, it’s going to be 10 years ago.

Nadine: So I was getting my doctorate right around then. And I literally was like, who the hell is going to want to come to me? You know? Cause I’m like, This is I seem like a crazy person now granted I didn’t seem like such a crazy person in the movie, but the movie was so extreme, but then ironically what happens was that women did want to come to me because they were like, wait, you went through that and you came out like this, you’re really walking your talk.

Nadine: And so I did do in person therapy in Los Angeles. And then once the pandemic happens, it opens up. Zoom and internet. So now I do it with women all over the world. And originally, I did not think I was going to be [00:14:00] some trauma bond expert. You know, when you grow up, it’s not like the wish of a little girl, right?

Nadine: I’m going to be a trauma bond whisperer. No. But I saw all these smart, kind, beautiful women coming into my office with the same story. And I was like, wait. We got a problem here. I got it. And so as an academic, I just started to go back to the research to really understand what a trauma bond is, what the pathological person is, what our personalities are like.

Nadine: So I could really help women to the best of my ability, because I know how horrific it is to be in that situation. And how

Clare: it feels. No, absolutely. And you talk about a pathological lover a lot on your, I see it on your Instagram. Um, so, and love bombing, obviously a lot of these people, are they like a narcissist, would you think?

Clare: Or is it a combination of a whole load of traits?

Nadine: Yeah, so the reason the term I use pathological lover is because pathological means mentally unwell, right? So anybody who’s going to use, [00:15:00] exploit, betray and like use, lie, exploit to you, betray you, harm you, they have to be mentally unwell. And so that’s why I call them a pathological lover.

Nadine: And Yes, do they have narcissistic traits? I mean, are they self absorbed? Do they need admiration? Are they arrogant? Are they grandiose? Do they exploit people for sure? But it goes much deeper than that. Right. So the term a lot of people use is dark tetrad for a person who’s narcissistic. Psychopathic Machiavellian and sadistic.

Nadine: Wow. Yeah. So because these people, they’re not just narcissists. Narcissist is the lightest personality trait in the dark tetrad. So it goes much deeper than that. They usually have compulsive sex addiction or drug addiction, right? Or like, like, or, or, um, a gambling, they usually have impulsivity. They usually have a mood disorder.

Nadine: So they have a lot of different. parts to their personality. They’re very complex. So [00:16:00] just to throw the label narcissist at them doesn’t really do it justice. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I use the term pathological lover because it encompasses all the things I just named.

Clare: I’d never heard that term before until I, until I was following you.

Clare: I never heard it. And also even trauma bond and love bombing. I, I’d never heard those terms, but I think love bombing must, the one that catches you is probably the most dangerous one, but yet how can someone listening to the podcast today know if they’re just being whined and dined and, and he’s very romantic and crazy about you and you know, wants everything to move fast.

Clare: And that’s normal to someone who is a pathological lover. What would you say to look out for? Well, what

Nadine: I would say to look out for is that, you know, first of all, listen to your body and listen to your gut and there’s nothing wrong, of course, with going out for romantic dinners and, you know, someone being mushy and gushy with you and saying kind things to you, right?

Nadine: The love bombing is a [00:17:00] little different. It’s because the person love bombs you with the intention to manipulate you to get you under their trance. So you, like, if it feels like too much, it is too much. If someone’s calling you 10 times a day and wanting to monopolize all of your time. And, um, just, just future faking, like saying, you know, we’re going to live the rest of our lives together.

Nadine: And you’ve been together for two weeks, you know, that’s

Clare: right. We just

Nadine: don’t fall in love that quickly. And yet it does feel so good when we’re longing for love to finally have someone just like, Just, just meet that need, but if I’m too thirsty for that, that’s when we really fall for this love bonding.

Nadine: Yeah. But if it’s too good to be true, guess what? It probably is.

Clare: I think as well after the pandemic and everything, a lot of people are searching for that connection and if they find some kind of connection because everyone was so on their [00:18:00] own, and I think a lot of people are very lonely and, and a lot of people are still not working back with people, especially, I don’t know, in the States.

Clare: They’re working virtually all the time. So they’re really losing that connection. So then for someone to come in and kind of overwhelm them in some way, it’s very easy to get trapped, I think. And that’s probably what they do, isn’t it? They kind of trap you where you you’re in this bubble and you don’t know how to get out of it, I imagine.

Nadine: Yeah, because it’s again, it’s the extreme displays of attention, extreme displays of affection. They’re just so over the top. And yeah, of course, if you’re hungry for thirsty for it, you’re you’re going to soak it up like a thirsty flower, right? But again, if it feels like too much, it is too much. If it feels too good, it is it is.

Nadine: Right. Because

Clare: love in a minute.

Nadine: Yeah. Right. And we. And the thing is that with love bombing is it tricks you into giving somebody like blind trust and remember [00:19:00] trust must be earned. Yes,

Clare: that’s a very good point. It’s a very good point. Um, and then with obviously a trauma bond as well. Do you think a lot of people get, not addicted to that, but they’re, it’s like they need to get like, they get wrapped into the abuse in a sense that they’re kind of used to being talked to badly.

Clare: I know they’re talked to in a great way for 30 percent of the time, but the rest of the time they kind of, they lose their self confidence. That’s really probably what happens to a lot of women, is it?

Nadine: That can happen and I write about this in my book and this is one of the reasons I wrote my book is that also there’s a certain type of woman that has certain personality traits, and I’m going to try to do this quickly and not be have too much psychobabble but there’s a Um, a theory called the five factor model of personality.

Nadine: Okay, and it measures personality traits of openness, agreeableness, extroversion, conscientiousness, and what’s the last one that’s. neuroticism. [00:20:00] What the research shows is that women who score very high in agreeableness, meaning they’re very pro social women, they’re very tolerant, and they’re very loyal, and women who score very high in conscientiousness, meaning they have a lot of integrity, they’re very disciplined, they’re very orderly, men, a lot of these men find women with those personality traits.

Nadine: Right. Now that doesn’t mean there aren’t other personality types too, and I go over that in my book, but if you think about it, if you come to me as a patient and you’re a kind person, you have empathy, you’re loyal, you’re trusting, I’m not going to try to therapize that out of you. Those are beautiful qualities, but in the hands of the wrong person, they get weaponized against you.

Nadine: Right? So I’m a very handsome therapist. I’m very pro social. Relationships. are where I want my return on investment in life. Relationships are everything to me. [00:21:00] So if I’m with a pathological person, I’m like, Oh, they’re going to get better. I have to stay loyal. Right? So it’s very tricky. It’s not just that, and they do beat you down and lower your self esteem and you lose yourself.

Nadine: Right? That’s why I wrote my book, because it is a very complicated process.

Clare: Yeah. And I, I love, by the way, the title of your book. I think it’s like the best, like run like hell is such a great title. Tell me your book. It’s coming out. When will we get it? It’s an, it’s going to be on Amazon. Is it March now?

Clare: It’s coming out. Oh,

Nadine: it’s coming out

Clare: January 9th. Oh, okay. I thought on Amazon, it said March when I looked at it. Um, but anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It’s January

Nadine: 9th that it comes out. Yep. Very, very, very exciting.

Clare: And how long have you been writing this book? Has this been something in the works for a while?

Nadine: It’s been coming for a long time.

Nadine: It’s had, um, and I offer this to your listeners, you know, everybody told me, Oh, nobody needs it. You’ll never sell it. You’ll never finish [00:22:00] it. Just keep going. You know, something inside of me knew that it needs to get written. Almost another part of me that just kind of wrote it. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

Nadine: I don’t know if I could ever do something like that again, but I really did it for women all over the world, everywhere. Because education is what makes us empowered and we need education. If we’re going to recognize. These sorts of people and these sorts of relationships. We also need education if we want to leave.

Nadine: And also we want to know how to heal, right? How to heal because we get trauma symptoms after living through a traumatic relationship.

Clare: Absolutely. And you are now, obviously you’re remarried and I think you have two grandchildren. Is that right? Have you a baby just recently?

Nadine: Yeah. My daughter. Fantastic.

Nadine: Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter’s a therapist too. So it runs in the family. [00:23:00] Um, and yes, she had a beautiful boy, Rory. And then my stepdaughter has another boy, uh, Charlie. Yep. So our family is growing. It’s a lot of fun.

Clare: Yes. It’s a nice stage. I’m sure. Cause you’ve a blended family now with your husband, right?

Clare: And he’s obviously the polar opposite. Is he of your ex husband? He’s, is he much, is he calm or a totally different kind of a personality?

Nadine: He’s a totally different kind of personality because I certainly have a type but um he’s you know we met I was 31 he was 42 and he had been divorced and I had been divorced and so I think we both really wanted a second chance at life and A lot of times we talk about red flags, but I want to talk about a green flag to, you know, I’ll never forget the first time I’m having a conversation with him expressing the need or we had a disagreement and I’m telling him how I feel and he goes, Oh yeah, I hear you right.

Nadine: What? Wait, you can hear [00:24:00] me? I, you can’t even understand how I was just blown away after not being heard for so long. But I always tell my patients, if somebody can hear you, they can

Clare: love you. Oh, I love that. I do. And it’s nice to hear about green flags because we hear so much about a red flag. And I think it’s so nice.

Clare: There’s lots of green flags as well. So, and everyone listening, you know, it’s not all red flags and that, and it’s nice to be heard. It’s, it is definitely. that you’re not fighting all the time and you feel like you’re getting nowhere. It’s nice for someone calmly to talk to you and to be heard. So that, that does make a massive difference.

Clare: And I think you can move forward once you can get to that point, I think you can move through anything. Um, but to lighten things up a little bit, I obviously talk about hair a lot. You know, Margot Robbie did play you in the movie, and I know you’ve met her, I think, as well, was to get you to meet people. I have, yes.

Clare: Um, and obviously last year there was a lot of the Barbie movie, it was a very blonde, we’ve had a very blonde year, us blondes. Yes. Did you see

Nadine: the Barbie movie? Oh, of course, I

Clare: loved it. Yeah, [00:25:00] me too. I absolutely loved it. I thought it was very empowering. I loved the way they did it. Um, do you feel like, um, you know, being a blonde bombshell, for example, which you are, and you know, obviously always have been, are you very attached to being a blonde?

Nadine: Oh, forget it. It’s like everything.

Nadine: It’s funny because I can be so academic and scholarly, but at the end of the day, I’m a girl and I live for my hair because I have such a serious job. I have to have fun with beauty and clothes and jewelry. And I, you know, I have extensions. I do my hair all the time. Yeah. I was telling to you, Clare, before we got on, my husband’s always like, what’s the hair budget?

Nadine: And in fact, I flew to LA to do, um, uh, podcast called juicy scoop. And I called up my girl in LA who does my hair, Alyssa shout out Alyssa. And I was like, the second I get off the plane, [00:26:00] I’m coming straight

Clare: to the salon. Yes. Absolutely. Well, it’s so important. You’re a long hair girl like myself. I wear extensions as well.

Clare: And I really feel like hair is a power, like a superpower, you know, and I have so many guests on and some of them have lost hair. Some of them are growing their hair back from different situations, but everyone agrees that as a woman, it is your power, whether you wear extensions, wear wigs, everyone likes to have that image that we portray to the world.

Clare: And I. Okay. I did dabble with being like a strawberry blonde last year, and when I look at the photos, like it was lovely, but it just wasn’t me. You know, when you’re like blonde, you want to be blonde, right? And I’m very attached to it. And sometimes I think, God, you know, I probably shouldn’t be quite as attached.

Clare: I should try different colors. Have you ever gone brunette? Have you ever changed your color over the years? Anytime

Nadine: I do, I hate it. Right. I just, you know, I’m just attached to my blonde hair. I was, when I was a little girl, I had a blonde blonde hair and now I just love it. And you know, life is so serious and life is so challenging and [00:27:00] it’s full of suffering as we know, and you know, we have to do things that give us levity.

Nadine: And yeah, I have a little fun with life and hair is one of those things for me. So what is your,

Clare: what you’re in Florida at the moment? So what is your day? Is it like, you know, do you, are you on the beach? Are you walking? Are you, are you very healthy? What’s your lifestyle like on a daily basis to keep you kind of, you know, on the straight and narrow?

Nadine: I, I, I work, I wake up at, you know, I’m a workaholic. So I just have to own that. I love my work. I love helping my patients, but self care as a therapist, you have to have it because you’re, you have to have a very full cup or else you can’t give to other people. So I cook out, you know, many times a week I walk with friends.

Nadine: I use the sauna four times a week. I eat relatively healthy. Yeah. I have a really nice life here, but right now, because my book’s coming out, I’m doing a lot of podcasts and I’m actually also creating an online community recovery group that’s going to [00:28:00] launch when my book comes out because I have a community of women online for women to be able to go and connect.

Nadine: So it’s a busy, fun time for me, but, um, yeah, it’s,

Clare: Are you touring with the book? Are you going to, are you going to make it to Ireland or over to Europe at all? I

Nadine: wish I’m done to go to Ireland actually. Cause I told you I’m Irish and I’ve been to England, but I haven’t been to Ireland. So, you know, I’m not really touring as much.

Nadine: I’m gonna have a big, uh, book party in Los Angeles because that’s where my roots are from. You know, that’s where I started my practice. So on January 11th, I think I’m having my big book party. I’ll go to New York and do some appearances. I’ll do some appearances here, but luckily because of the internet now, I can do this whole podcast circuit and just reach so many people and get to meet wonderful women like you.

Nadine: It’s

Clare: so. Would you do a podcast yourself? Would you [00:29:00] like to do? You

Nadine: know what? I don’t. I think there’s so many great podcasters out there and I’d just like to go and be a guest and let everybody else do all that hard work.

Clare: Well that sounds like a fair deal, but it would be lovely to have you over here, obviously, if you’re ever coming to London or anything.

Clare: Yes, I’ll be sure to let you

Nadine: know. Yes. No, I’m

Clare: dying to see you. So obviously, you lived in New York and you’ve lived in LA. I lived in LA for five years, so I know it well. Florida. So do you think you’re a different, like you’ve different lifestyles and different places. Do you prefer to be more in the East Coast or do you like your West Coast vibe

Nadine: more?

Nadine: You know, I loved Los Angeles when I lived there for 24 years. It was an incredible place to live. 72 degrees and sunny and no humidity. Never does it wrong.

Clare: It’s a good hair day every day. Not like Florida. Florida kills my hair, Dr. Nae. Kills it. I know. Florida, you get the frizzies.

Nadine: Yeah. But, um, I loved it. I really did.

Nadine: And it was very, very good to me. [00:30:00] Um, and my children as well. And, you know, I really do embrace change because I know that change is inevitable. And I love living on the East Coast again, because, you know, I grew up in Brooklyn and also I moved because of the pandemic. I wanted to be close to my children and my baby, my grandbabies and with the, you know, with maybe being able to do therapy over the internet, it allowed me to do that.

Nadine: So I’m kind of like, you know, wherever I am, I’m pretty happy. And I do, I mean, other things I miss about Los Angeles for sure. But, um, no, I’m settling in nice here. And

Clare: even your background looks very like Florida, pretty, very nice. It’s all very gorgeous. I have to say. So I always ask about her personality.

Clare: If you have a hair personality or if you had a different one years ago, and now it’s changed slightly. So, you know, I always, I always think that, you know, sometimes when women are, you know, even dating, their hair personality is very [00:31:00] different to maybe when they have get married and have a child. And maybe a lot of the time I see clients that tone the hair completely down, they’re a blonde bombshell and then they go short and dark and they just ignore all that.

Clare: And I find that’s like. Totally, two totally different personalities where I’ve always stuck with the blonde bombshell thing as much as possible. So what about you? What’s your, what’s your hair personality, Dr. Nae? Do you have one?

Nadine: I think that my hair personality, you know, I’m definitely not going short and dark.

Nadine: I would not. Um, I would not, I would not, um, be good at that. I don’t know if it has necessarily a personality if I would just describe myself. I just think, I mean, my hair is actually, I want to think about it a certain way. Like you, you said something really interesting in the beginning. Like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s the first thing people see, right?

Nadine: It’s not like clothing. It’s, it’s who you are. It’s what you wear. And I think my hair is very like here and in your face [00:32:00] and bold and that’s okay, because I think as a woman, I’m really embracing that part of me right now. I think as a young woman, I was very, I was much meager and, you know, deferred to others and like, let everybody else in the room have power.

Nadine: And now I’m like, Oh, I’m owning my power. I’m owning my intelligence. I’m owning my age and my hair’s just going to go along with me. I’m going to be like Dolly Parton and be glamorous. I

Clare: love Dolly Parton. I mean, I love her because I loved the outfit the other week. I mean, so many people were giving out about that cowboy outfit.

Clare: She looked amazing and she’s Dolly Parton. She can do whatever she wants. She’s the sweetest, most wonderful woman. And I think it’s amazing that there are So many women pushing the boundaries because for so long women have been told at a certain age, you have to do this at a certain age. You have to do that, and you become invisible.

Clare: And women ha I think, are now stopping that they’re not gonna be invisible anymore. And I, and [00:33:00] they want to be heard. And I think that’s the power of hair, the power of makeup, the power of, of, of, of confidence really, I suppose. You know, it’s very important to Yeah, I

Nadine: love that. Right. And I think that that’s, that’s the right word, is confident.

Nadine: You know, but authentically confident. I’m not better than anybody. I’m not worse than anybody. I’m simply me and that’s good enough and that’s okay.

Clare: And I love you because you’re strong and fabulous and anyone listening. I just, I can’t tell you how much I’m drawn to you. I think you’re wonderful. Really. I do.

Clare: And I’m dying to get your book. My mother just actually, um, her book is just coming out. It’s a novel, a bit raunchy. And, um, so I’ll send that over to you, different kind of thing now to your book, but I will send that on. So I know how hard it is to get a book out there and just to keep at it and writing.

Clare: So I have to say congratulations on that. And I’m looking forward to reading it. And thank you so much for joining me today. Can you tell everyone where they can reach you, what your handler is and all that kind of information?

Nadine: Sure. Uh, on Instagram, they [00:34:00] can reach me at the real Dr. Nadine and then on TikTok, which is the wild west of social media, they can reach me at Dr.

Nadine: Nae, N A E L M F T. Um, or my website, drnay. com where I have tons of free resources and tons of great assessments for people to take if they want to learn about themselves. And if you go on Instagram, direct message me, I answer every single DM myself. You do. Yeah. I’m very involved in my community. I love my social media community.

Nadine: And thank you so much for having me on. This has been such a

Clare: fun way to start. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much and enjoy the sunshine in Florida. Thank you. And

Nadine: happy Christmas. Happy Christmas.